THE WEST BLOCK
Episode 7, Season 13
Sunday, October 29, 2023
Host: Mercedes Stephenson
Guests:
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister
Location:
Ottawa, ON
Mercedes Stephenson: Global News has learned that Canadian Special Operations Forces are on the ground in Israel. Sources say that they are there to help with embassy security and liaise with the IDF. We’ll talk about that today on the show, as well as Israel’s new phase of operations in Gaza.
I’m Mercedes Stephenson, and The West Block begins now.
Israel’s defence forces have moved into Northern Gaza, launching attacks above and underground and unleashing hundreds of airstrikes.
We speak to the former head of the Canadian Special Operations Forces, who led a peacekeeping mission in the Sinai about the ground operations.
Plus, a candid conversation with former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak: why he says Israel must defeat Hamas, and why he says he still believe in a two-state solution.
Israel has escalated its offensive in Gaza. Israel knocked out communications on Friday, which are now starting to come back online. They’ve also unleashed the most powerful wave of airstrikes to date. Expanding into a ground operation as well that has been underway since Friday. As we are speaking, Israeli forces are fighting in Gaza right now.
In a televised address to Israeli’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu warned that the war will not be short.
Mercedes Stephenson: Netanyahu said the war inside the Gaza Strip will be long and difficult, and we are ready for it. This is our second war for independence. We will fight for our native land.
For more on what this second phase of the war will look like, I’m joined by retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson. He was the force commander of the Multinational Force and Observers, a peacekeeping force based in Sinai, Egypt, during Israel’s last ground operation in Gaza, in 2014.
Thank you so much for joining us today, General Thompson.
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Good morning, Mercedes, my pleasure.
Mercedes Stephenson: You were the commander of Canadian Special Operations Forces, which we didn’t mention in your bio but it was a huge part of your career. Global News had learned this morning that the Canadian Special Ops, including the most elite and secretive unit among them, JTF 2, are in Israel, that they are helping with things like embassy security and liaising with the IDF. Can you tell our viewers a little bit more about what the Canadian Special Forces and JTF 2 would be doing in Israel?
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Sure, but just to be clear, Mercedes, I don’t have any inside baseball with respect to the current conflict. But typically, CANSOF, or the Canadian Special Operations Forces, deploys to crisis areas using what’s called an Immediate Response Task Force, so that they can draw the capabilities that they need from across the entire Canadian Special Operations Forces command, which includes JTF 2 and other units. And then they will—and because they’re on such a high state of readiness, they can get into the theatre rather quickly and conduct the tasks that they’ve been given by the commander of CANSOFCOM.
Mercedes Stephenson: And just so we’re clear with our viewers, we’re not implying that they are involved in going into Gaza in an offensive capability or anything else. This is a relatively common, as you mentioned, deployment, but interesting nonetheless. I’d imagine a number of other countries—I know the United States has said publicly that their special forces are there as well.
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Absolutely. I mean, we don’t know yet. I don’t think it’s been confirmed. There are still two Canadians missing, I believe. They could well be hostages, in which case they may be part of the hostage rescue planning. I don’t know that for certain. But this is typical to send—to send the Immediate Response Task Force to an area that’s in crisis, and that could be something as simple as protecting the embassy. It could be—they could be involved in assisting the Israeli’s with their planning. There’s certainly a close relationship between Canada Special Operations Forces and the Israeli Defence Forces. So, there’s nothing surprising here and it’s pretty much par for the course.
Mercedes Stephenson: General Thompson, we heard Benjamin Netanyahu say that this is the second war for independence for Israel in his view, and that it will be a long war. What do you interpret that to mean in terms of the military campaign?
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Well we’ve already seen it rollout. So first off, there were about three—if I recall correctly—three raids into the Gaza Strip that were meant to assist in gathering intelligence and reconnaissance, etc. And then they started a couple nights ago with the full on invasion of Gaza. And they’re doing it systematically. So what they did initially, early on before all of this, is they ordered the civilian population out, which is not exactly realistic, but they wanted Gaza City to be thinned out as much as possible and they sent them south of Wadi that crosses—that cuts the Gaza Strip in half. And then now they’re moving in and they will systematically isolate each individual neighbourhood. By isolate, I mean surround by armoured vehicles to make sure nothing gets in or out. And then they will clear it: buildings, ruins, and tunnels in a meticulous fashion, in an effort to kill all the Hamas fighters, to destroy any equipment and weapons that they find, and if they’re there, to rescue the one—some of the 229 hostages that Hamas has taken. But this is extremely complicated, and if you recall in 2017, they Iraqi assisted by the Americans took nine months to clear Mosul from—of the Isis fighters that were there—and they hadn’t had nearly the time that Hamas has had to prepare Gaza. I mean, they’ve been—they haven’t been inside of Gaza for nine years, since I was there in 2014. So it’s going to be a tough fight and there will be heavy casualties.
Mercedes Stephenson: You know, obviously, based on your experience about Hamas, how they operate, their capabilities. What do you anticipate the IDF is going to be facing?
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Obviously there’ll be tunnel warfare, which is—which is going to be difficult. But again, the Israeli’s after the 2014 conflict, have done an awful lot of work on tunnel warfare and created special units that are—that do exactly that and have created a training facility, which is apparently the largest in the world, to train soldiers in tunnel warfare. So, they will be prepared. But Hamas is—they’re on the home turf. Above ground, of course, they’ll be able to use their antitank guided weapons because they have quite a few, and they will use IEDs, etc. Sorry, improvised explosive devices, in order to disable and destroy Israeli armoured vehicles, which is why by the way, Israel, when you watch the video that they’re releasing, goes in with their heaviest armoured vehicles, including the Merkava 4 tank which is almost indestructible, has an active anti-armour system, which is called the Trophy system, to shoot down incoming missiles. But at the ranges we’re talking about here, in a closed in urban environment, it will be extremely tough for the Israeli’s. And the advantage will in some respects, be in Hamas’ side.
Mercedes Stephenson: How do you fight in a tunnel? I mean, that sounds like something out of a nightmare to me.
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: One of the principle problems is of course, if the electricity is out and there’s no lighting, it’s totally dark. So if you think of a soldier in night vision goggles, he needs some light to make the image intensify or work inside of a night vision goggle. So if he doesn’t have that, then he has to turn on an IR floodlight, and just to have some form of light. But if the Hamas fighter on the other side also has goggles, because of course they’ve been given technology from Iran and others. Then he’ll see that light come on. So, you know, it’s close quarter combat that is extremely—extremely hazardous and you—you basically you have to proceed quite slowly. Now, you could use, which is something that a lot of special operations forces use, dogs. You send the dog in first and the dog has a camera strapped to its back, and he moves through the tunnel system and you watch the feed to see what the dog sees. But, you know, that’s feasible in say, a small compound like we had in Afghanistan, but it may not be so much so inside of a tunnel system. And knowing the Israeli’s they’re probably going to use a lot of technology, so very small micro UABs and possibly robots. But, you know, time will tell. I have confidence that the Israeli’s have given this problem a lot of thought and they will endeavour to clear these tunnels, as I mentioned, in a meticulous fashion and do what they can to save the hostages.
Mercedes Stephenson: That’s fascinating about the dogs and the robots in particular. I take it given how meticulously you’re describing them using almost this grid movement to clear and then move on, you’re not surprised there wasn’t sort of the mass invasion a lot of folks were expecting when we saw the tanks all lined up along the border. Do you think that was more of a psychological operation than an intent to go in with what looked like a D-Day level of force?
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Well, as you recall, they mobilized over 300 thousand soldiers. The last time they went in on Operation Protective Edge, they mobilized 75 thousand soldiers. So it’s, you know, do some quick math here—it’s a fourfold increase, I suppose, in the size of their force. But I’m not—I think they’re going to need all of those vehicles and all of those people because eventually, they have to hold what they clear. That’s always the problem in urban operations, is you can clear a building or clear a tunnel system, but then you need to post centuries, if you will, or put in place a mechanism to make sure that they’re not re-infiltrated. So eventually, those—some of those 300 thousand troops will—their task will be to hold the ground that is cleared by those tunnel experts I was talking about and the other infantry that are going to clear the rest of the urban area. So I don’t think it’s too many troops. No, they’re not all engaged right now because they’re going to do this, as I mentioned, neighbourhood by neighbourhood. It’ll take months to get this done.
Mercedes Stephenson: We have just under a minute left, but I wanted to ask you about the American presence in the region. It’s clearly been ramping up. How do you interpret that?
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: Well there are two carrier battle groups in the region, and I think they’re there as a deterrent to Iran, and it’s also worth noting that the Secretary of Defence Austin announced the arrival of a [00:10:57 fad battery and a patriot battery] Fad meaning terminal high, altitude area defence weapon. And those two batteries are capable of taking down ballistic missiles. So the idea here is to thicken up, I believe, the surface to air missiles envelope that’s overtop of Israeli, in order to defend them from any attack by Hezbollah or from Iran. And the carrier battery works, of course there’s no greater deterrent considering the fighter aircraft wings that are aboard them. All of which should give pause for thought to Hezbollah and Iran.
Mercedes Stephenson: Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, thank you so much for joining us today, sir.
Retired Major-Gen. Denis Thompson, Former Commander, Multinational Force and Observers: My pleasure. Thank you, Mercedes.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, my conversation with former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak about the war and why he still believes in a two-state solution.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is fighting its second war of independence, and the goal is to eliminate Hamas. How that happens is unfolding right now in Gaza, against the backdrop of a growing chorus of calls for a humanitarian pause to help Palestinian civilians who are trapped in Gaza as Israeli airstrikes rain down.
Former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak is no fan of Netanyahu’s, but he’s united in his mission to defeat Hamas. Barak is one of Israeli’s most decorated soldiers, a former defence minister and head of the Israel Defence Force. I spoke to him on Friday before Israel had launched its second phase.
Mr. Barak, thank you for joining us. Obviously a very complicated and fluid situation in Israel. What are the factors informing the Israeli government and Israeli military’s decisions on how to proceed with the offence in Gaza?
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: There are four constraints. One is the hostages, I mentioned it, and it’s [a] very sensitive issue. There is the risk that it will spread to the north, to Hezbollah in Lebanon, probably also Iraqi shared militia backed by Iran for the [00:01:17] to focus on dormant cells in the West Bank. And we, of course, are not interested but it might help [00:01:26] take it into account. And there is the third risk: you have to accept constraint, has to do with the international law. We are committed to the international law, want to minimize the amount of civilians being hit there and it’s a great heavy constraint. And last constraint is the need to make sure we have someone to pass the torch once we ended the first stage in let’s say, within three or six months, we end up with eliminating the military capability of Hamas and pushing it out of control in Gaza. We do not plan to stay the full 10 or 20 years, so we have to pass it to someone else and that’s a challenge.
Mercedes Stephenson: On the hostages, Hamas has said that they will not release them unless there is a ceasefire. Do you think that there is any possibility of that?
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: I think that a lot of contacts are taking place behind the scenes: Americans, Germans, although probably other nationalities. For sure the Egyptians, the [00:02:34]. All are dealing [with] trying to find the formula. We put it in the uppermost list of priorities, together with defeating the military capabilities of Hamas, and I think it will be irresponsible to go into the details. We’ll do our best to have it—to have certainty, even before the ground force invasion, but we cannot delay it for too long and Hamas cannot get impunity through the fact that they hold hostages.
Mercedes Stephenson: One of the things that Israel has to think about here is the future of Gaza. And I’ve read your opinion and the opinion of other experts, saying that the Palestinian authority no longer has the credibility or perhaps even the ability to be able to govern in Gaza. So what do you imagine this looks like? Everybody knows the Israeli military is very powerful and it could dismantle the military capabilities of Hamas, but dealing with the ideology is another issue, and then dealing with the fallout which Israel will own for who governs once it’s no longer Hamas.
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: So some 15 years ago, I was a minister of defence and we had the same issue. It was even evil at the time. I tried initiate [00:03:57] and Hamas, the following idea: the next time you have to clash with Hamas, who will take over the Gaza Strip and destroy all its military capabilities. And [00:04:11] will arrange some multinational Arab force, led by you and you take it from us for a limited time that is three or six months, during which you will bring back the original internationally recognized owner of the place, which [00:04:28] you know, to show the answer of [00:04:36] I cannot afford coming back to power in the Gaza Strip, sitting on Israeli [00:04:44]. So I didn’t like the answer, but I understood it. But 15 years have passed and I’m not sure that now it’s a possibility. We have now, the [00:04:55]. We have the idea of a trilateral deal with the United States, Saudi Arabia and Israel. It’s not inconceivable to every multinational Arab force backed probably by [00:05:06] security council resolution and are being financed by the Saudi’s and the Qatari’s, even paying to Egypt for this arrangement, and make it happen. And strengthen the [00:05:22] but by backing them for economic and civilian development of the place that Hamas would not deliver and they under the new situation probably can deliver. I think that it deserves real clarification, probably behind closed doors from the public eye between Israel and the other neighbours and the United States, of course. And I hope that they structure of our government which is right wing now and maybe believers of [00:06:02] will not block it and enough open as might be found, to discuss it sincerely, hopefully before we complete the operation and even more hopefully before we started that might find to be utopia.
Mercedes Stephenson: Do you believe a two-state solution is still possible?
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: Yeah, I’m confident that, you know there is old Roman saying: If you don’t know which port you want to reach, no wind will take you there. I am confident we cannot deal with it now because it’s a war we [00:06:39 have to be successful] to win and to settle things more quiet after removing the Hamas. Only then we can start to think of it back. The objective division should be [a] two-state solution, and it’s common to the Americans and to all our neighbours. And I hope that these kind of axis of moderation and tolerance that it led by the United States having the Egyptian, the Israeli-Jordanians, probably the Emirates and the Saudi Arabians and certainly the [00:07:15 Qataris] that this axis is capable of taking over the other axis led by Iran, would be Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in the Gaza Strip and probably some Iraqi’s militias backed by Iran in Syria and Iraq and even the Houthis in Yemen. I think that we are on the better side of history and the real needs of the region, and I hope that we’ll be able to implement it in the future, but repeat it only after winning this war. There will be no normal life in the region if Hamas can stay in power after such a crime against humanity, a kind of a Da’ish-like, barbarian slaughtering of innocent civilians.
Mercedes Stephenson: The U.S. struck a couple sites in Syria after attacks on American soldiers, and a lot of analysts are saying that indicates the U.S. is showing they are willing to engage, they’re serious. There’s concern about this spreading to the United States or to Iran, and of course, Iran backs Hezbollah and Hamas. What is your sense of whether Iran is interested in a broader regional war or containing this and keeping it limited?
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: Certainly Iran is behind the strategy to surround Israel with hostile players, which I mentioned earlier, and create the kind of synchronized or organized attrition campaign against Israel. I think that, you know we are strong and if it is imposed upon us we are to win and overall this group, but Iran is behind it. Having said that, the American president right now is probably a good deterrence to Iran for [00:09:11] the Hezbollah to intervene in the [00:09:16]. It’s even a direct deterrence to the Hezbollah in Lebanon and certain details but also assurance to the Lebanese government that the United States also think[s] of them, that it will try not to allow the destruction of Lebanon, even if we have to hit on the Hezbollah.
Mercedes Stephenson: Former Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak. Thank you so much for joining us today, sir.
Ehud Barak, Former Israeli Prime Minister: Thank you.
Mercedes Stephenson: Up next, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau does a backflip on his carbon tax policy, but only for some Canadians.
[Break]
Mercedes Stephenson: Now for one last thing.
The crisis in the Middle East has captivated the world, and while Canadians are fortunate to live in peace and security, events on the ground in Israel and Gaza have not put a pause on politics here.
This week, the prime minister blinked on his signature carbon tax, but only for some Canadians: those who use home heating oil, which is mostly used in Atlantic Canada.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau: “That is why today we are announcing a three-year pause on the federal pollution price on heating oil so that we can give everyone the time and ability to switch to heat pumps.”
Mercedes Stephenson: Canadians who use natural gas to keep warm in the winter, though, are out of luck. The carbon pricing pivot comes after months of the Liberal government defending the carbon tax as necessary for the environment, despite the affordability crisis. The change in course could be interpreted as the government thinking on its feet to respond to changing events or a more cynical lens of pandering to votes as the government is dunked in the polls. What is no doubt a welcome move for Atlantic Canadians could become a political liability for the prime minister, though, if the policy is not equally applied across the country.
That’s our show for today. We’ll see you next Sunday.
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